Okay, so now we are going to move into 10-minute rebuttals. As 1 Timothy 3:15 says, the pillar and foundation of truth. Hebrews 11:5 states, By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death. And he was not found because God took him up. Thats why Protestant scholars since the nineteenth century have taken the position Herbet Ryle did in saying the legend about the Great Synagogue was wholly untrustworthy., Christie also cites Geoghan and Homess book The Bible for Dummies in favor of the Great Synagogue, but on page 11 the authors make no mention of the Great Synagogue or of Ezras canon being identical to todays Protestant Old Testament. Okay. And Steve, stick around because Ive got one final question for both of you, but I wanted to say two things before I do that. This uncertainty continued for several hundred years into the Christian era, and the Jewish canon wasnt closed until the third or fourth century. Timothy Lam, in his book Formation of the Jewish Canon, agrees: Paul belonged to a Jewish sect that had a canon that was determined but not yet defined. Moreover, his arguments for a shorter Old Testament canon are contradicted by the biblical and historical evidence. In order to show these dogma contradict scripture, Steve must do one of two things. When it comes to savior, I would just challenge Steve, where does Luke 1:46 through 48 talk about sin? So even if that dogma is defined ex cathedra by a pope, by an ecumenical council, or by the magisterium, if it contradicts scripture, that dogma must be rejected. We receive no funding from the institutional Church and rely entirely on your generosity to sustain this website with trustworthy, accessible content. In Isaiah 7:16 it talks about a time before a child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. My colleague, Tim Staples, has written an entire book on Mary called Behold Your Mother. So youre going to agree it does not deny Mary was assumed into heaven? Now Steve mentioned and many other Protestants allude to Matthew 1:24-25, which says When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him. He was content to let go and die a natural death. Is primary meaning of adelphos that you have the same biological mother and father? Since Christians are not bound to accept their ideas about what Scripture meant regarding the messiah or the need to follow the Mosaic law, we arent bound to follow what they considered to be the boundaries of the canon, which was disputed even among the Pharisees. And number two, when it comes to veneration, worship, honor, give someone the respect that theyre due. But here Strongs says brother but that could also mean half brother, right? As Trent Horn shared with Matt Fradd on Sips with Aquinas Ooh. In fact, Jesus called the Pharisees a brood of vipers, and John Bergsma has provided evidence in his book Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls that John belonged to an Essene sect at Qumran, whose members embraced a wider canon than the one Christie is defending. Not everything we believe is found explicitly in sacred Scripture. And I already cited Greek scholars like Bill Mounce and New Testament scholars, like Richard Bauckham, who agree with me that adelphi has a broader semantic range than what Steve has brought up here. September 16, 2018 by Randal. So that doesnt take away from what an errancy is about, which is Scriptures specific affirmations related to what it affirms. . If it was an eyewitness account, I suppose someone would had to have been informed about that. I didnt bring up [Greek 00:52:36]. This question comes from agoyforJesus. Defenders Media provides media solutions to an alliance of evangelistic ministries that defend the Christian worldview. Well done. Yeah. When Mary says My soul magnifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God, my savior. This doesnt prove that Mary committed a sin. And in the new Testament, the specific Greek word for savior is used about two dozen in times, and every time that its used in scripture, in the New Testament, it always refers to God or Jesus being a savior of salvation and saving someone from sins, which is why I brought up Acts chapter five and The Epistle of Titus. You can also reach me on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube. It has nothing to do with Mary being the ark. Yes, and Christie admits they did, though he thinks we can discern which Jews had the correct canon of Scripture. Offering a sacrifice to Mary would be an inappropriate. I mean, to quote Jimmy Akin, when he was asked, Did all the early church fathers agree? He says, Boy, did they not all agree? So there was a lot that the early church disagreed on and there was things that they agreed on, things that Trent would agree on and theres things that they agreed on that I would actually believe in. By contrast, some quoted Sirach as a book of Scripture, though it was eventually excluded. Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. It says here that Jesus is the firstborn, prototokos, of Mary. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can a conclusion be infallible if the underlying logic is false? Dont have the context of this question. This is a great resource to have, and the beautiful photos of the children in the womb speak for themselves. So Steve would probably say that, Well, Jesus has sins, but there our sins, not his sins. Okay. No, the Bible never says Mary gave birth to anyone else and no one else is called a son or daughter of Mary. We should only offer that to the father and the holy sacrifice of the mass. So we wouldnt be surprised that Septuagintal constructions would be used in the New Testament, including the fact that [foreign language 00:26:54] can imply a reversal as it does in the Greek gold Testament but it wouldnt be surprising to find it in the New Testament. Yeah, sounds good. And notice that Steve kept saying, Yeah, it says all have sinned. Jesus, of course, is the exception. Now, as I said, we do find this in other roughly contemporary literature. Steve Jordahl, Billy Davis. I cant go into that in detail here in the answer, but I might talk about it in a future podcast episode. So for an ancient Greek speaking person, why would adelphe have a narrower semantic range than adelphos when the only difference here is the gender? And then hopefully, in my next turn, Ill be able to address some of the other arguments that Steve has raised. Dear catholic.com visitors: This website from Catholic Answers, with all its many resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. Its a word that really should be used strictly for God. So it must be used in some other way. Lets see here. Their issue is not about Mary. All right. So a child that age, you think its realistic that in the condition that they were brought up, that Mary could have never committed a sin especially as a child? Just like Jesus and Mary did not have glorified bodies, Jesus did not have a glorified body during his earthly ministry, he briefly revealed it on the Mount of Transfiguration, but Jesus was not going about in his glory during his earthly ministry. Finally, the point about Mary dying, I think Steve was really missing this here. All right. In this debate, originally hosted at Pints with Aquinas, Trent Horn engages Protestant apologist Steve Christie on the question of whether the Marian dogmas contradict what is taught in sacred scripture. I was wrong there. Sure. In Ineffabilis Deus, where immaculate conception is defined, the word unanimous appears once. Yeah. By utilizing electric acoustic guitar and digitally recorded performance tracks with the technology of digital harmony Steve performs your favorite hits, "flawlessly". The 33-yard field goal came with just :35 to play, giving the Bills a win over the Titans, who had knocked them out of the playoffs the year before. Select this result to view Steven Luke Christie's phone number, address, and more. Some people dont die at all. So Steve even admits that Jesus is an exception to the claims about the universality of sin. When early followers of Jesus began to focus their adoration on Mary, rather than on Christ alone, Jesus responded, Rather blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it. Thank you. So I agree with that. A Response to Pastor Chip Thornton's Anti-Catholic Newspaper Article. First, this debate is not about whether the Bible teaches the Marian Dogmas or even if the evidence shows that theyre true. What son would not bring his mother back to life and would not bring her into paradise after her death, if he could. Jesus did not wish to have the body of Mary corrupted after death reduced to dust. And again, what I argued is how adelphi is used consistently in the New Testament Greek, not how its used in a Greek translation of the Old Testament. Lets take a look here. Thats not true. You have seven-, All right. Also death is not a sign of being a sinner, as Steve alluded to earlier. Well, a lot to cover here. Okay. The only son? So theres nothing in scripture that contradicts that. Cyril of Jerusalem refers to Baruch as the prophet, cites Baruch 3:35-37 in defense of the deity of Christ and includes Baruch in the writings of Jeremiah in his list of the canon. Jude 9 talks about the archangel, Michael, contending with the devil disputing about the body of Moses and taking the body of Moses, the dead body of Moses, that being assumed into heaven. What about after the apostolic age? And so if it doesnt contradict scripture, then it should be an issue between Catholics and Protestants of secondary importance, much like how people disagree about infant baptism. Luke 2:7, Steve said, Well, look. Did the reformers believe every Catholic truth? Dr. Steven A. Christie MD Radiology General Radiology Kendall, FL Male 21+ Yrs Experience English 7500 SW 87th Ave, Kendall, FL Overview Location & Contact Education & Experience Overview. Matthew 18:17 says, Jesus says, If a person who sins against you refuses to listen to you or two or three witnesses, tell it to the church. And it seems to envision the church as having some kind of authoritative structure and not simply as the invisible bond between all believers. Its always nice to see people who are willing to put forward rigorous argument and engage others charitably. This is not a commitment to lend. Submit to my authority. Thats right. Hallow.com/mattfred, click the link in the description below. Or Steve could show Bible teaches the opposite of these dogmas in regard to every single human being without exception, which would include Mary. And Trent and I would agree that doesnt mean it, in fact, that wasnt even an argument. First theres a dogma of Theotokos, Mary being the mother of God. He says, Steve. Qualification, rates and payments will vary based on timing and individual circumstances. And I would also address that Luke actually specifically states that it is a salutation. As the Apostle Paul wrote in his fourth chapter in his epistle to the Roman church, For what does Scripture say? Id have to respond individually. No, of course not. Otherwise things leading up to it, we could interpret them either in a broader sense. The fact that this is used of Mary is very unusual. bitcoin wyohackathon bitcoinkn.com Trace Mayer Steve Christie Kraken.com. Can you name one verse where either God or Jesus is described that way in the New Testament? My first book is about not really of us, why do children of Christian parents abandon the faith? 1644440684524367. steve.christie@phmloans.com. Did they believe that the doctrine of Marys perpetual virginity violated the authority of scripture? He has the burden of proving that the dogmas contradict scripture. So thank you very much both you, God bless you, and stay safe out there. It is because of my tremendous love and respect for the Mary of God [inaudible 01:48:45] Scripture, that I felt the responsibility to point out that the Mary of Roman Catholicism is not the same as the Mary of the Word of God. Just today, Hallow uploaded my Lo-Fi music to their app. He was a five-year teammate of quarterback Jim Kelly, who has been in remission from sinus cancer since August. Mounce writes, Nicodemus politely says Jesus is a teacher; but when Nicodemus does not understand the necessity of a spiritual rebirth, Jesus questions his status as the teacher, an authoritative rabbi (A Teacher or The Teacher?). And they talks about how they offered cakes on alters to Mary. So the fact is, does the Bible teach that Mary was not assumed into heaven? Well, again, this is the exception. And if you look into church history, these dogmas were not all agreed upon. In fact, the Protestant reformers, John Calvin said of Matthew 1:25, No just and well grounded inference can be drawn from these words of the evangelist as to what took place after the birth of Christ. Martin Luther even called this argument against Marys Perpetual Virginity based on Matthew 1:25 babble and without justification. What is Mary talking about in Luke One? Were going to move into seven-minute rebuttals. So lets take a look at them. If you want to go more into that, my book, The Case for Catholicism has a chapter on the immaculate conception. They can live out the gospel teaching in their unique holy family. I would give this analogy to my protestant brothers and sisters. Well, according to Genesis chapter or in Genesis, it says in that day, you will surely die. Trent, in your recent podcast rebutting Ray Comfort, you said Jesus is the only person referred to as the son of Mary. He says, Trent, the proclamation on Marys immaculate conception says that the fathers unanimously believed that which is false. They would be sons from another marriage. The dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary contradicts scripture in the following ways. So whether we are discussing the Marian dogmas, the papacy, the purpose of baptism or communion, or the biblical Canon, the real authority behind these debates is whether you trust in the sufficiency of God [inaudible 01:52:23] Scripture to reel itself to you or to the Magisterium, which often conflicts with it. So this question comes from Mitchell Godfrey, and Im going to just change his question a little because he said he is not going to be watching live. Christian worldview, by faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not bring his mother to! Children of Christian parents abandon the faith son would not see death Christian.... Finally, the word unanimous appears once we should only offer that to the about! 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